Highlights of IOSG DeFi Summit|“Collaborative capabilities of synthetic assets, decentralized trading and oracles”
On October 26, 2020, at the 7th Old Friends Reunion IOSG DeFi Summit, we invited Sergey Nazarov, Co-Founder& CEO of Chainlink, Kain Warwick, founder of Synthetix, Antonio Juliano, founder of dYdX, and Sergej Kunz, Co-Founder& CEO of 1inch, discussed and shared the theme “Collaborative capabilities of synthetic assets, decentralized trading and oracles”, and talked about how to explore and develop more interesting products in the DeFi era.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
Hi everyone, I’m thrilled to be joined by some of the greatest minds and people actually building things here in the DeFi world. I think we’re all very lucky to hear their opinion on a number of interesting topics because they’re the people that are actually getting their hands dirty and getting all of these things built and driving the world forward. So I think we have a few interesting topics to discuss we’ll kind of just jump right into it but just so everybody has context who’s watching this it might be useful for each of the panelists to briefly introduce themselves and what they do. I guess we can start with Kain, he can just describe what he does briefly, then we can go to the others and then jump into the questions.
Kain Warwick（Synthetix）
Yeah cool thanks Sergey. I’m the founder of Synthetix. Synthetix is a synthetic asset issuance platform on Ethereum, so we allow people to get price exposure to a range of different assets via Chainlink oracles obviously so you know we have assets like gold, silver and Bitcoin that you otherwise couldn’t trade on Ethereum, and Antonio go-ahead.
Antonio Juliano （dYdX）
Hey guys I’m Antonio, the founder of dYdX. It is one of the leading decentralized exchanges for margin and perpetual products. Perpetual products are just one of the most popular types of derivatives in crypto-currency. Sergej.
Sergej Kunz（1inch）
Hi everyone thanks my name is Sergej. I’m a co-founder and CEO of 1inch exchange we are a DEX, leading aggregator on the market on Ethereum. We built also several other products like first AMM with front running protection for example and we are going to deliver some more products.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
Great thanks for all being here and chatting through these interesting questions. I think DeFi is really accelerating at an amazing pace. I think it’d also be interesting to hear you know how do you think that DeFi has developed over the last year. During that development is there anything that’s been particularly surprising to you? If it works for you Antonio, I guess we can start with how you feel about that.
Antonio Juliano （dYdX）
Yeah absolutely. Well there’s obviously been quite a lot of stuff that’s happened in the past year in DeFi I think a lot of it surprised me at least we’re to start I guess really just with the resurgence of tokens in general obviously it was really just the COMP token and their new liquidity mining scheme which I think really kicked this off in a big way of course there’s been a lot of fast followers to that uniswap being one of the biggest most notable examples. I think just this really big explosion of new tokens that are all really interesting doing interesting things has made there be just a lot more different assets that people want to trade on Ethereum. This is really what’s been driving the big increase in adoption of DeFi in general because for the first time like DeFi is the first place where you can trade a lot of these assets. Of course uniswap is a really great leader here just with all the volume they’ve been doing the new tokens they’re able to support. So I think I’d say the biggest highlight for me has just been the resurgence of tokens a bunch of new assets that people want to trade and that’s just leading to a bunch of new volume for decentralized exchanges and other products.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
Yeah it makes sense. Sergej how have you seen things develop over the last year, what’s been the most has there been anything that surprised you over that time?
Sergej Kunz（1inch）
So I was surprised this year about this huge growing of provided liquidity and several protocols so uniswap did a really great job with getting more and more liquidity there right now around two billions in liquidity compared to last year it’s a huge jump also based on a user amount like between 20 000 users and 30 000 users are using everyday uniswap this is actually really great for DeFi space we had this year hype of several products. This YAM token for example and SUSHI with exit scam of the dev, which paid back the money but at the end. Such projects can also moves and damage DeFi space. But anyway we are still there and we had really a great goal.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
Yeah I’m looking forward to get more. So Kain how has the DeFi space developed over the last year in what you’ve been seeing. Is there anything there that’s particularly surprising to you?
Kain Warwick（Synthetix）
I think the resurgence of tokens was not necessarily surprising to me it was kind of validating right like I’ve been one of the biggest advocates for tokens for a long time now and the fact that they are a really powerful coordination mechanism. What really surprised me I think was the COMP, you know specific aspect of the COMP launch which was this kind of blank slate token approach right up like we’re going to launch this thing that has you know very minimal rules built-in. I kind of had this intuition that like you needed to have very clear rules about how the coordination would happen, but this idea that you could just release a token that only did governance and then let the governance actually solve those problems was very surprising to me. I didn’t see that coming, I think that was maybe one of the kind of critical innovations, that allowed a lot of the next wave of tokens to kind of launch quickly, without needing to know everything that they were going to do right they could just kind of launch the token, let the community decide how they’re going to change the rules and govern the system. Which I think is you know really interesting and DeFinitely caught me by surprise.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
Yeah it’s interesting. I think there’s DeFinitely a lot of innovation for me like the fascinating thing was how quickly and how far yield farming went I think that you actually Kain had a lot of initial insight into how that worked and made a lot of the first versions of how that were to work properly and then it kind of really took off from other people kind of building on those ideas which I found to be very impressive. But I think what it’s actually done is it’s given like an interest rate and it’s given an interest rate that even gets people to take their Bitcoin and bring it into the DeFi ecosystem and it even gives a reason for people in the traditional world to turn their assets into the crypto format because they could get an interest rate whereas they couldn’t get an interest rate from a bank account from their local bank. So it’s really the yield farming thing is misunderstood as something that’s weird but actually it’s making a very fundamental use case in the form of yield. And for me the fact that our ecosystem now in like less than a year successfully makes yield in volume is a pretty big innovation in my opinion. Now that we have some of this progress and some of these things getting built the right way and getting to do more things than just kind of generate tokens and move them around but actually create financial products to do things like generate yield. I’m actually wondering how do you see some of this stuff scaling right, how do you folks see DeFi is an ecosystem scaling and what role would layer 2 have to play in that. The first person we can ask for this is Sergej, what do you think about this point?
Sergej Kunz（1inch）
So I think that we need Ethereum 2.0 to scale, and not layer 2 solutions just because of the composability of layer 2 which is difficult and for example for us for DEX aggregator. It’s painful or it’s not possible to integrate anyone who is not on layer 1 and we need better usability user-friendly interfaces and processes and with adding additional complexity on top of existing products. It could be maybe profitable and useful from our point of view, we also try to experiment with layer 2 with for example also our friends again some Russian guys. We will see what will happen but we are looking in direction of Ethereum 2.0.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
Yeah makes sense. I can see how that’s complicated for more of a trading kind of focused environment if the tokens aren’t on the layer 2. I think that’s part of what a lot of them seek to solve as they seek to make that transition very seamless. So I guess on this point of how you think DeFi will scale properly and how layer 2 play into that, Kain how do you see that evolving?
Kain Warwick（Synthetix）
Yeah I think we’ve all been waiting for Serenity for ETH 2.0 for a long time. Now you know it’s been around the corner for a while and I think that we you know we were all kind of caught out a little bit in the last 3 to 6 months right with the gas prices on Ethereum. So you know one of the nice things about that is that it’s really forced everyone to get their sh*t together push hard to kind of accelerate scaling. So I think we’re now in a position where there’s probably 20 different very strong teams that are all working on these problems from different angles. Which is amazing we finally got the level of investment that we needed on layer 2 scaling and amount of focus that we needed.
So I think that there’s gonna be an interim period where you know if you have a look at Vitalik’s post from a couple weeks ago about this roll-up centric ETH 2.0 roadmap I think we’re going to have a transition period for maybe 18 months 24 months. Where we’re still stuck with ETH1 like you know ETH1 is what we’ve got. So we need to try and scale that as much as we can obviously there’s issues with composability but there’s a few different things that I think we can do to kind of alleviate those issues. I also think your point Sergej around composability it’s also a market opportunity right realistically particularly for a DEX aggregator right like you know the more complex it is for a user to kind of interact with all of these different l2s, the more opportunity there is right it’s the same kind of style of problem as trying to aggregate liquidity across all these DEXes. It’s a total sh*t show you guys came in and just put this layer across it and all of a sudden, it’s easy you just go to one place and you hit a button and it just does it for you right I don’t know how the routing works or the pathfinder or anything like that but you know it just works for me. It’s like magic yeah it’s magic right like and you know it genuinely does strip away the complexity right like you just turn up and it’s just this magical experience where you get the best fill even if you don’t know what the f*ck going on. I think that is probably going to be a market opportunity. In the next you know again couple of years where you’ve got all these different layer 2s and you someone needs to find a way to kind of unify them, so every kind of challenge creates an opportunity as well.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
Yeah that’s very well said. I think that’s the right way to view it right that’s what we’re all here to do is to solve these problems that’s really what we’re all doing in this space. So Antonio how do you feel about how DeFi is going to scale properly and how layer 2s play into that?
Antonio Juliano （dYdX）
First of all I think it’s obviously a really important problem just the reach of DeFi is going to be super limited if people have to pay you know 5 to 10 plus dollars for every single trade that they’re going to make, that’s like we’re barely even better if at all than like centralized finance or like your broker or whatever in mainstream finance. So we have to solve this problem first of all. There are also just a lot of other really limiting things that people don’t realize so much about what’s possible on layer 1 Ethereum right now. It’s not just gas prices, it’s basically like you can only write smart contracts that are very simple and do like pretty simple things whereas on a layer 2. If it has a lot more scalability you could do a lot more interesting things to solve a lot of interesting user experience problems things like that. That’s something we’re really focused on at dYdX. I guess our plans and we’re working pretty hard on this we’re moving to layer 2 right now, basically we’re working on this. We’re integrating with starkware, which is a zero knowledge-based roll-up system. We’re pretty excited about there are a lot of other great scalability solutions that are out there.
A lot of people are excited about Optimism potentially other layer 1 chains, what I would say on layer 1 Ethereum is... Maybe I have an extreme view on this, but I would be extremely surprised if there are any benefits to smart contracts from Ethereum 2 or whatever in the next like 3 years. I think it’s going to take at least like 3 to 5 years for there to be any benefits, basically they’re like currently implementing phase 0 of like 7 or 8 phases or whatever that’s been like for the past year or two, so I think it’s just going to take quite a long time. I think there are also some important at least as far as I can tell unsolved problems in Ethereum scalability that they’re still working towards. So in the interim kind of like Kain said, I think we’re going to be in this world, where different people move to different layer 2 solutions . Obviously like I said dYdX moving to starkware, you know Synthetix moving to Optimism things like that one of the other things. I’ll say is just one of the reasons you see some of these synthetic asset protocols like us and Synthetix are great examples of this. Moving to layer 2 earlier is that at least for dYdX especially (I don’t want to talk for Synthetix so I’ll let Kain answer for that) but at least for us, I’d say composability is a little bit less important because we don’t need there to be like a ton of tokens to trade on the actual Blockchain that we’re using. It’s synthetic right so the entire point is that we can create assets out of like one collateral asset or multicollateral assets or whatever you have. But for dYdX, we just have one collateral asset and then we can create like every different type of thing that people might want to trade based off of that. So for that reason and also in derivative systems or synthetic systems, the first thing that you always have to do before trading anyways is deposit, because you have to put down collateral, then you can trade based off of that collateral that you have down. This is just a really similar experience to depositing collateral onto a layer 2 system. At least for dYdX, we’re really optimistic that the product that we’re going to be able to build on layer 2, is going to be really significantly improved in a lot of ways. We’re not going to be so limited by kind of the composability. So that’s why you see us moving to layer 2 a little bit earlier.
Kain Warwick（Synthetix）
Yeah agreed, it’s the same thing for us. We have the luxury of kind of bringing our whole ecosystem across to that l2 which means we can be a first mover without you know incurring a huge cost to it.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
So yeah I think that leads to the next interesting question. How do you feel that composability fits into accelerating DeFi’s value it provides to users, what are the pieces of composability.
That you do find important? Whether that’s the token from layer 1 being on a layer 2, or whether that’s data from oracles or how does composability play into your plans or your views on how DeFi and its value is delivered going forward? Kain if you could share your views on that.
Kain Warwick（Synthetix）
Sure I’ve got one very specific example that we’ve been working on for a while. Anton from 1inch has actually been collaborating with us, and Michael from Curve and a few other people to help get this over the line, which is essentially to use these synthetic assets as bridges across different AMM pools. So we’ve got the situation at the moment where if you want to trade one type of stable coin into another, you can get you know a 10–15 million dollar trade filled with very little slippage, same thing for. If you’re trading different types of synthetic Bitcoin, you can trade 5 million dollars for the ram BTC into wrapped BTC Pretty easily. But what you can’t do because of the design of some of these AMM pools Is cross those pools. So we’ve been working with a number of different teams and this is really in the past. It’s kind of been everyone working in isolation and then after the fact kind of hooking things together, but I think the ecosystem now has developed to a point where we all kind of know each other we can have these conversations we can work collaboratively. So we’re working on building these virtual bridges between these AMM pools and even yesterday we were doing some kind of fork testing on a forked main net. I think it was a 10 million dollar USDC trade into wrapped BTC which through 1inch right now the fill would have been like 805 BTC, and using a bridge plus 1inch’s mechanism it was gonna be like a 831 BTC, which is a pretty huge difference in the fill across that 10 million trade. So I think we are starting to see like a next second-order effect in terms of collaboration and coordination across these different protocols, to make sure that we’re utilizing all the functionality right. Which is not easy to do if you’re working in isolation, so these sorts of things I think are really exciting and I know a bunch of people are working on different sort of collaborative things. Andre’s always collaborating with people from Wire, so it’s a really exciting time at the moment.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
Yeah I think so. I’m thrilled to see a number of people just clicking together different pieces and different parts, and making more and more advanced use of all the different kind of smart contracts that teams like yours make and then composing them into more advanced contracts, more advanced offerings and driving more value total value locked into them. Building interfaces around those contracts, which they might not have even made themselves. All of that is really kind of the future of financial engineering really which is what we’re looking at. So from your point of view Sergej. How do you see this how do you see composability playing a role in accelerating DeFi’s value? How do you see various pieces of composability whether that’s pieces from other DeFi protocols? Whether that’s data from oracle’s, whether that’s any other composable piece. How do you see any of that how do you see that fitting into DeFi’s growth and its ability to deliver value to users?
Sergej Kunz（1inch）
From our point of view, DeFi is all about compatibility about money legos. So we have built a startup of just because we just use all the money legos so on a hackathon last year we had just used the money lego from uniswap, Kyber and Bancor and over that we built just known own platform, which aggregates and offer better user experience and solve problems save money and without this money legos, it wouldn’t be possible to build such tools like we will. We have worked in the last year almost with everyone except the dYdX, we didn’t find any touch points unfortunately but we are looking in direction leveraged positions and so on. Which we maybe can use and it makes fun to work with a lot of different companies startups and use those products. I compare it with the traditional technical world like these are small microservices and everyone can use it in a permissionless manner, and this is great. Like for example your oracles, we use your oracles to avoid simple failures. By getting the prices we can just do the on-chain calls on our own Ethereum nodes or maybe other nodes whatever else. But you do get the red data because it’s permissionless.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
Yeah I think that’s really what underpins the power of this space is. Just like you had people in the web world making libraries, and making various tools that people then connected together into killer apps. Like Uber or something else right? Like Uber the people who made Uber they didn’t build a GPS system, they didn’t build Stripe for payments, they didn’t build Twilio for messaging right? People like only see Uber but really Uber is a combination of these other building blocks. And I’m really excited that the reliability of blockchains finally creates these financial engineering building blocks, that can be composed by teams like yours and others. And it’s really very exciting because I think it’s a very clear picture of the future in that. If you can have these highly reliable building blocks and really competent teams that compose those building blocks, then the sky is the limit, just like the web world surprised everybody with e-commerce and Uber and 50 other things. Nobody could have predicted back in the 90s right? That’s kind of where we are as a starting point, but I’d also be thrilled to hear Antonio’s point of view, how do you feel that composability will accelerate DeFi, how will it provide value to users? How do you think that various composable pieces, whether they’re pieces from other protocols oracles other composable pieces. How do these composable different building blocks fit together. In your vision how DeFi develops?
Antonio Juliano （dYdX）
Yeah absolutely. So first of all it’s been amazing to watch just a lot of the composability things. I think DEX aggregators like 1inch and others have been a really amazing first example of this. How you can basically just try to get the best price across a bunch of different DEXes. I guess my view on this and something we’ve been working on at dYdX and the way we normally build is a little bit different than I would say the way most people in DeFi build better or worse. We try to build things more vertically integrated a little bit, so we rely a little bit less on some of the composability aspects not that I’m saying that’s kind of the optimal way to build. That’s just the way we structured our product in our company just really being product first and focused on what can we do to always build the best product. I will say that there are still even with that mentality there’s still a couple like really important ways that composability is important to us you touched on this a little bit but certainly price oracles. We don’t want to build our own price articles that’s a really hard problem. Great people like Chainlink, Maker and others are working on this and we integrate with you guys on that. So I think that’s a really important way that we benefit from composability. Another interesting thing that we’ve done with composability is, we’ve basically used one of the automated market makers Curve to kind of sit as a proxy contract in front of our contracts. Which just because basically dYdX only supports one type of collateral, but we want other people who have other types of collateral to be able to use the system too. So they can basically come to dYdX, they can quickly exchange their say USDT to USDC collateral. Which they can then use on dYdX and this all happens behind the scenes but this was actually extremely easy for us to implement probably took us like 2 or 3 engineer days to implement this. And this is just a real testament to what’s possible with composability on Ethereum with these building blocks that anybody can use. We didn’t have to go and talk to Curve or like their team or anybody to be able to do this, we just started using it and our product really benefited from that.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
All of those types of dynamics once again are super impressive to me. That people can just connect all these systems and make a better financial product than what you would see from a bank more transparency amazingly better yield. So more transparency better economics and permissionless innovation and global access right like those three things are quite powerful forces. So at the end of the day it seems like there’s plans that people have for scaling DeFi, there’s demand for DeFi to scale, there’s composability that allows teams to quickly compose and build these more advanced applications and kind of stand on the shoulders of giants and also give back to a community of building blocks that then other people also use and also give back to. So these are two very powerful dynamics. I mean how do you think on the backs of these two types of powerful dynamics. Let’s say they work out let’s say you have scalability let’s say composability gets everybody all the building blocks they need. How do you see DeFi achieving mainstream adoption and really going maybe beyond not even beyond the crypto world but going to the crypto world and in the mainstream world? But how do you see DeFi adoption really growing to new heights and beyond if Sergey if you have a point of view on this, I’d be thrilled to hear how you see this kind of evolving.
Sergej Kunz（1inch）
Yeah if you can solve the problem with the scalability, then we have to solve the problem with the usability. And we need more user-friendly applications mobile applications and from open reviews as well desktop applications to offer everyone to enter this new role for finances and offer access from any point on the globe to access this choice of finances. When I started to use Ethereum and some DeFi applications, I thought well this is a piece of sh*t and how it can work yeah and then. I started to understand it. It has to be done in this way because of this limitations of Ethereum and scalability. But anyway we tried also from our side to improve the user usability, and continue to do that and hope we can grow in this space in the next future. And I hope maybe in one two years, we’ll see more people in different space. Because it’s about freedom yeah DeFi is freedom from our point of view.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
Yeah it makes sense. I think it’s very difficult to marry security and usability. That’s kind of the challenge that a lot of these blockchains and private key based systems have. So I think people just knock up against that problem and they’re like wow private keys are really tough to deal with in a usable way. Antonio how do you feel about this, how do you think DeFi will achieve mainstream adoption in your opinion?
Antonio Juliano （dYdX）
Yeah I echo everything Sergey says. I think it really has to start with just from a product first perspective, building products that at least are every bit as good as like centralized exchanges and other centralized products people use to interact with crypto. And then start like once we’re on par I think from a product perspective that’s really hard to do, just as a first step like there are a lot of problems with scalability usability that we’ve touched on that need to be solved there. But once we solve those problems, I think a lot of the kind of second order improvements that DeFi gives you, in terms of just the ability to use censorship resistant financial platforms, to use financial platforms that are owned by the community in a lot of cases that have really great interoperability with other products like. Once we solve the product challenges, those second order benefits will really start to shine through and that’ll be kind of the big turning point for DeFi. In terms of once we get mass adoption. But I think there’s just going to be a lot of building that goes on especially in the next year. So seeing a lot of it happen right now with some of the leading projects moving to layer 2. A lot of the layer 2 is coming out improving over time and once some of the projects put up a kind of MVP on layer 2 then we’ll probably need about like 6 to 12 months to work out all the product kinks after that but you know my estimate would probably be in the next 12 to 18 months. If not sooner we’ll really see some products that are every bit as good as you know centralized products and that’s when we’ll start to the massive adoption.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
Yeah makes sense. I think we DeFinitely need to reach at least feature parity, you don’t want to… That’s not like the goal. Let’s get this be just as good right, so you have to go beyond that. But I think that’s the first kind of stop there. Kain how do you feel about this, what do you think will help DeFi achieve mainstream adoption in your opinion?
Kain Warwick（Synthetix）
Yeah I mean users normal people don’t care about the tech. They don’t care about the process they care about you know the result right? The experience that they have, and if you tell them that they’re going to get some better thing but it’s going to be 10 times harder to use, no one gives a f*ck, no one’s gonna do that. Maybe some like early adopters and people that really care about the intricacies of the thing will do it. But users want it to be easy right they want all the complexity subtracted away they really want that end-to-end experience to be powerful the question I guess that we need to ask is. What is that experience you know, what is the thing that’s going to drive product market fit? And I think something that you mentioned earlier in the panel for me is probably in my mind right now. And I don’t think we know what it’s going to be, but I think one potential thing is yield, we’re in a zero-interest rate environment right and you know we’ve got this. If you can get 1 or 2 percent yield for someone in a same fashion that’s easy to use that isn’t crazy there money isn’t going to all blow up or whatever I think that’s a very very powerful thing what we haven’t been able to do is put that end-to-end experience together for a user. That is as good as traDeFi or centralized finance product. So if we can take the DeFi yields that we’ve got and package them up in a way that’s really removes all the complexity all the confusion and onboard users in the same way. I think that’s something that could significantly drive adoption, but as Antonio mentioned, there’s a lot of things that are missing right? Like we don’t have Twilio. There’s a whole bunch of components that you want to stitch together that just aren’t there yet right you know. The system can’t scale etc.. So we have to solve all those problems, and then we need to really focus on what the end user experiences that we’re going to deliver. I think if we do those things then people are ready for it, they’ll come in waves.
Moderator -Sergey Nazarov（Chainlink）
Yeah I completely agree. I hope we can maybe provide more of those components in oracles and various other data inputs and payment outputs and whatever other systems people need but I completely agree with you about the yield dynamic. I think the like maybe I don’t think half, but a very substantial double-digit percentage of the global financial system is like getting access to the federal funds rate, getting access to bond yield, getting access to a savings bank account somewhere. People don’t know or care where that interest rate comes from. I personally think this will even get to a point where bank interfaces and Robinhood all these other places will as an interface, eventually drive users into these DeFi protocols. Because that’s the place where they can give the most competitive yield to their users and that’s what they’re going to want to do. That’s what they want for their users is whatever their users want and their users want yield, and if the global financial system doesn’t give them yield they’ll go wherever the yield is that’s just how the financial system works. So I think that’s kind of the amazing thing is that the amount of collateral and the diversity of collateral slowly improving and the transparency of where the yield comes from and therefore the counterparty risk management. It’s all super impressive and I’m really grateful that they’re smart teams like yours and the other people on this panel really putting together these building blocks and composing them together and making our industry actually, not just about like making tokens and selling tokens, but about financial products to do things like generate yield. That’s going to really open up people’s eyes to what blockchains and smart contracts can really do separately from generating tokens. Which is a good starting point because it sees value.
So I think it’s very exciting times ahead. I’m thrilled that there are great smart people like you, Sergey Antonio and Kain working on this and I’m hopeful that other people like me and others can help build infrastructure that supports you and that all of us together can build a truly decentralized transparent future that gives everybody all over the world access to yield and all these kind of financial products. It’s very exciting and I’m truly thrilled and grateful to be working on it with you as well. So thank you very much for discussing it here with me and looking forward to seeing you in the digital bubble Zoom room world, until we can finally get together in person. Which I’m really looking forward to as well. So thank you!
Kain Warwick（Synthetix）
Thank you.
Antonio Juliano （dYdX）
Great conversation guys.
Sergej Kunz（1inch）
Thanks so much!
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